#OPEN2009

Matti Nelimarkka

eDemocracy research should not only focus on linking the citizens and public sector / administration, but also look at administration itself.

Matti explains how there is no agreement on what democracy is

Different approaches: Liberal individualists, communitarian, deliberative (dalhberg)

...or what's good democracy...

other: managerial, consultative, participative (chadwick & may)

matti shold check Eirik's thesis and his webting (http://www.efatland.com/portfolio/webting/) also you all should Look at it

sidenote: Finnish eDemocracy based on eParticipation, eConsultation and eEmpowerment

@andreuchis I agree, Eirik's thesis is a great Master's thesis, and the design viewpoint!

@troppone what ref you use for that? (where it is explicitly stated?)

on ubiquitous participation: matti says that this qaiku thread is a good example of it

@andreuchis This is in the final report of Sade project (in administration), will send the link l8r

(someone) says we are not looking enough into technology (sure?)

@troppone kitti u re the best

@andreuchi http://bit.ly/1sjTng page 116 - it's in Finnish, but the diagram is in English

sidenote: this happens in Bogota next week: http://www.icegov.org/. quote: "shifting from technology-enabled improvements in government operations (Electronic Government) to improvements in interactions between government, non-government and civil society stakeholders (Electronic Governance)..."

@troppone I am a fluent Finnish reader, thanks.

a critical comment on this: is it deliberative to make the decisions "on the spot" - without time to ponder? Won't it change to sort of "everyday life polling" which will give a false image of the possibility to participate in societal issues. Would ubiquitous participation fit to "big & complex" issues?

so far these are ways to raise up ideas (and that's good), but not seeing the deliberation yet...looking forward to hearing about that

@aharju good point, but if there is also a possibility to make decisions on the spot, then it's different.

@aharju I asked him almost same question in the review. Deliberation for me is abit more: reaching an agreement, making compromises, making an argument (and being able to acknowledge later it was bad- or imporve it). But we might need to wait still to see experiments with the proto

@pni there are issues in "instant democracy" - deliberativeness gives a chance to slow down a bit (sometimes too much..)

nice stuff @matnel, thx, deliberative democracy is key thing, keep that

@pni true... So far the referendum practice hasn't got too much support in Finland, would this technical "easy-made voting" make a difference on that?

@aharju thinking of yesterday's "playing football but allowed to kick the ball only once every four years" (Tattersall, I believe it was), easy-made on-the-go voting could change that.

@pni thanks for that - I must've missed that analogy but it's a funny and illustrative one :)

I agree on the need for referendums, but would somehow like to be careful about deciding things too fast.

Just to discuss the deliberative part a bit more, as it created discussion.

Deliberation is a mindset, way of working, culture. It's based, just as @andreuchis said in her kind review. We can not create it by any technology tool, but we can try to empower and fooster it with different kind of tools, but we hardly can not change culture by developing new tools (of course, technology effects our culture - I e.g. live allways connected life,

What I wanted to point out, is that at the moment many e-democracy things are based on desktop paradigm, where as ubi- and context aware things could allow different kind of approach is information finding.

The deliberative word is in the topic, as the tool would allow deliberation (dialogue between citizens, that in the thing behind deliberation). But, the research question is, if people use or behave like that.

@andreuchis: it has been in my (too long) todo-list. The user interface is of course part of the system desing (like is moderation etc.), which can be examined and looked how much they effect on the participation (members & quality) and user experice.

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