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pe3 said

pe3  

Panel: Visions

44 comments

pe3 posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

44 comments

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troppone  

Hmm. Open society can be quite scary!

troppone commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (fi)

pe3  

copy-paste programmer

pe3 commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

aharju  

( @pe3 the thread has fi tag)

aharju commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

pe3  

@troppone: what are you exactly fearing?

pe3 commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

matnel  

@troppone: yeps, as I already discussed in the panel (from society level)

I like the idea of open streams to different services. Then, I can manage special streams in different services etc.

matnel commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

pe3  

@matnel: i think you also thought this is scary - what are you exactly fearing?

pe3 commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

SamuliK  

Answering @pe3 on behalf of @troppone: things like "mob justice" based on skewed/partial/misinformation, for example. All information is partial information, one could say...

SamuliK commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

mace  

The jokuveli-book is still on my list... :/ I forgot the name of the author.

mace commented on posted to #OPEN2009 Helsinki 06.11.2009 (en)

troppone  

@pe3 Well, openness is very paradoxical, we want organisations to give control to people, but we want to control our own data. These privacy things...like my electricity usage etc. great from the climate change point of view, but what next, everybody seeing whether I do sports enough? Do I have a right to "poor health" in the future...usual stuff ;)

troppone commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

pni  

How much energy would all these energy usage monitoring devices use and how would that be monitored?

pni commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

troppone  

@SamuliK yep that's (among the things) what I meant.

troppone commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

mace  

Have you looked at the electricity meter at your home? We have one, it gives very concrete feedback of my electricity consumption (and i can publish it if i want to).

mace commented on posted to #OPEN2009 Helsinki 06.11.2009 (en)

troppone  

@pe3 this "fear" and privacy discussion is going on in some other threads too

troppone commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

SamuliK  

I think the "profile" based on the persons consumption would be a very limited one. It's just the input, and not the output. The reasons for the input (errors in measuring devices? water pipe leak?) would be missing etc etc.

SamuliK commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

juhak  

@mace But you cannot transform it into contextual information (consumption in regards to time, how much is good/bad etc.). Seeing a meter is not understanding it.

juhak commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

juhak  

Here's a link to Wattson

juhak commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

visualradio  

The emergence of thinglinks and the possibility to talk with all the products we are using will give a technical possibility (RFID, unicode, barcode). We could collect information about our ecological footprint and store it in a personal consumption bank. Maybe we could use it as a base for tax paying?

visualradio commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

troppone  

Pay for privacy? Privacy as a service? (PaaS)

troppone commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

juhak  

@visualradio This is the direction I'd like to see. To encourage thinking beyond simple metering towards services that affect people and the environment.

juhak commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

pni  

@mace we have some meter system in the basement (never seen it), and in the apartments only an old board that doesn't tell me anything else but that it was installed many decades before I was born...

pni commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

matnel  

@pe3: at the moment we work based on certain rules, that guide how we work. For example, the role of government is to secure our security (Hobbes' view). If we rebuild the basics of our society, what will happen to these rules. Can we actually break things and create an anarchy?

Secondly, from my own perspective. I don't like others to have my data. I have my own server infrastructure due to that. In cloud environments, I actually try to use system level limitation of my privacy - I don't publish Qaiku's that hit in area I want to secure.

matnel commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

ikajaste  

"A world were there is no privacy at all, that is where we are moving to. But there is nothing to fear in that."

ikajaste commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

SamuliK  

@troppone Happening already, think Beverly Hills for example :-)

SamuliK commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

hongisto  

Privacy may become a luxury good if it can be priced

hongisto commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

troppone  

@ikajaste who said that? what did I miss?

troppone commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

mace  

@juhak bollocks. I recorded the reading every monday for 2.5 years and i can think of many ways to contextulize it. At that house we only had electronic heating, so usage in wintertime was manyfold etc etc

mace commented on posted to #OPEN2009 Helsinki 06.11.2009 (en)

SamuliK  

Penn & Teller put it nicely in one of the Bullsh*t episode, can't remember the wording exactly, but something like that the society should be wiser that the individual. We get angry, emotional, emotions get in the way of rational thinking. A too "flat" democracy might be a euphenism for anarchy?

SamuliK commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

troppone  

energy consumption per building, for example, could be more acceptable?

troppone commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

Reinikainen  

Welcome to the Master Citizen Index http://www.visionwareplc.com/page.cfm...
Be afraid...

Reinikainen commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

mace  

@troppone i'm more and more convinced that you should check out Paratiisi vai panoptikon!

mace commented on posted to #OPEN2009 Helsinki 06.11.2009 (en)

pni  

@troppone perhaps, but you get quite frustrated if you save and still the whole building's consumption goes up. What then? A feud?

pni commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

SamuliK  

If it's energy provided on the spot with wind mills, solar panels, fuel cells et cetera, how much does it matter if a lot of energy is being consumed+

SamuliK commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

visualradio  

Privacy - should I think about the problem when I'm going to the shop? I'm not concerned about exposing me as a human being (a dynamic communication package) to friends and strangers. What are we afraid about? I know lots of fears - but really - why are we concerned about the privacy? Should I ask instead, how could I live a healthy and rich life? Privacy seems like hiding myself inside a box.

visualradio commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

juhak  

@mace Good that you did, but most people don't have the interest, time or skills to do that. In order to achieve real change, things need to be made more accessible so they can be used by crowds. Many times possibilities are not explored, because something just exists "if you see the trouble for it"

juhak commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

mace  

Hmm some etymology: we use the word "humankind", not "humanevil" ;)

mace commented on posted to #OPEN2009 Helsinki 06.11.2009 (en)

hongisto  

the economic aspect of all this is that people assuminlgy do save if they see they can decrease their expenses

hongisto commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

troppone  

Yeah @mace, took note of that. I'm personally not a privacy freak, but conscious.

But I'm thinking that organizations are finding openness difficult because the people in the organizations fear that openness in organisation will perhaps lead to "_bad openness_" in their personal lives (i.e. privacy "misuse")

troppone commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

mace  

@juhak it's quite easy to read a numeric reading and write it down in a notebook. If a person cannot do that, the problem is somewhere else, like you mentioned.

mace commented on posted to #OPEN2009 Helsinki 06.11.2009 (en)

aharju  

How many of us would agree publishing the data of our Internet traffic and use (a link to the piratism discussion about starting to monitor more effectively the internet traffic of households)?

aharju commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

mace  

@troppone that's a good point, i second that!

mace commented on posted to #OPEN2009 Helsinki 06.11.2009 (en)

troppone  

BTW, what's the difference between road surveillance and internet traffic surveillance? ;)
(re @aharju)

troppone commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

DanieleBeta  

ok, u sold it, ur right to privacy and mine?

DanieleBeta commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

ikajaste  

@troppone: I think my quote was from Karthikeya Acharya, but I'm not sure.

ikajaste commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

DanieleBeta  

@troppone ((oh-oh))

DanieleBeta commented on posted to #OPEN2009 06.11.2009 (en)

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